1 00:00:08,420 --> 00:00:12,770 The common European Energy policy of course is not only related to wind energy, 2 00:00:12,770 --> 00:00:14,450 it's a much broader issue. 3 00:00:14,450 --> 00:00:17,610 There are next to wind energy also solar power. 4 00:00:17,610 --> 00:00:23,020 There is this issue of Russian import of gas. 5 00:00:23,020 --> 00:00:27,789 Whether we should rely on that anymore in the long future or not. 6 00:00:27,789 --> 00:00:31,189 So its a much broader discussion than only wind. 7 00:00:31,189 --> 00:00:37,410 But if you look to energy policy yes to a certain degree its already done by the EU 8 00:00:37,410 --> 00:00:41,540 and by a lot of regulatory bodies of the European Union. 9 00:00:41,540 --> 00:00:46,500 But on the other hand there are still a lot of national interests involved in the regulation of energy. 10 00:00:46,559 --> 00:00:50,309 And if we look to the case of natural gas in the Netherlands, 11 00:00:50,309 --> 00:00:55,049 I think the Netherlands are very proud on their natural gas reserves and I think there 12 00:00:55,049 --> 00:01:00,549 might be quite so resistance to give Brussels or the European Commission the authority to 13 00:01:00,549 --> 00:01:04,680 tell what the Netherlands should do with the Dutch gas. 14 00:01:04,680 --> 00:01:09,960 So and France has another approach, Germany has a very strong national approach 15 00:01:09,960 --> 00:01:15,890 to energy so yes I think there is a need towards a European Energy Policy. 16 00:01:15,890 --> 00:01:20,259 But how to cope with all these different national interest in Europe. 17 00:01:20,259 --> 00:01:23,500 I think that's a very huge challenge. 18 00:01:26,500 --> 00:01:32,299 Wind energy is really indispensable if we look at sustainable energy systems. 19 00:01:32,299 --> 00:01:39,600 We need wind, we need significant input of wind if we really want to move towards sustainable energy systems. 20 00:01:39,640 --> 00:01:46,640 On land, wind is already competitive with conventional fossil fuel power plants. 21 00:01:46,679 --> 00:01:51,229 So that's something which is technologically also quite well developed. 22 00:01:51,229 --> 00:01:57,499 But on land there is limited space to build all these wind turbines and there's also lot 23 00:01:57,499 --> 00:02:01,060 of public resistance against building wind turbines. 24 00:02:01,060 --> 00:02:04,460 So there's a strong movement to go off shore. 25 00:02:04,460 --> 00:02:07,039 And off shore really means far off shore. 26 00:02:07,039 --> 00:02:15,000 More than 50-60-70 or even perhaps 100 kilometers off shore so you will not see these wind mills even. 27 00:02:15,900 --> 00:02:22,690 And there is much more constant flow of wind which is also a big advantage for this means 28 00:02:22,690 --> 00:02:25,019 of sustainable power production. 29 00:02:25,019 --> 00:02:29,659 So there is quite some movement at this moment to develop off shore wind energy. 30 00:02:29,659 --> 00:02:31,489 But its much more expensive. 31 00:02:31,489 --> 00:02:36,849 Its not really competitive to fossil fuel power plants at this moment. 32 00:02:36,849 --> 00:02:40,720 So it needs to be subsidized and stimulated in one way or another. 33 00:02:40,720 --> 00:02:43,400 So there is a issue if we want this or not. 34 00:02:43,400 --> 00:02:48,470 There's also a issue who's to develop this network there off shore. 35 00:02:48,470 --> 00:02:55,080 And off shore is also not empty water, there are lot of right for fishery and recreation, 36 00:02:55,080 --> 00:02:57,909 for military or naval transport. 37 00:02:57,909 --> 00:03:01,549 So this is far from free North Sea. 38 00:03:01,549 --> 00:03:04,189 There are all trajectories for different uses. 39 00:03:04,189 --> 00:03:06,500 And wind has to be placed within that. 40 00:03:06,500 --> 00:03:11,470 And that's not a trivial issue so we also have to consider all these different interests 41 00:03:11,470 --> 00:03:16,000 and other groups that do want to use the North Sea. 42 00:03:16,000 --> 00:03:21,590 And then we want to place wind power there in between somewhere. 43 00:03:21,590 --> 00:03:23,769 The environment is very harsh of course. 44 00:03:23,769 --> 00:03:27,000 You can imagine all these storms and salty water. 45 00:03:27,000 --> 00:03:31,310 So you can not just take on shore wind turbines and put them off shore. 46 00:03:31,310 --> 00:03:33,129 That will not work. 47 00:03:33,129 --> 00:03:34,930 So you need really different constructions. 48 00:03:34,930 --> 00:03:37,790 You need to drill it in the ground. 49 00:03:37,790 --> 00:03:43,620 The North Sea is not so deep but still it's quite expensive to make these foundations. 50 00:03:43,620 --> 00:03:46,700 And you also need to develop the network there off shore. 51 00:03:46,700 --> 00:03:48,239 On shore we have a network. 52 00:03:48,239 --> 00:03:52,760 And you can quite easily connect to the network without huge expenses. 53 00:03:52,760 --> 00:03:57,250 But imagine you build a wind park 100 kilometers out of the shore. 54 00:03:57,250 --> 00:04:01,849 So you need to develop all these cable connections over there. 55 00:04:01,849 --> 00:04:06,489 And if you imagine there's not a discussion to have a plug outside on the waters. 56 00:04:06,489 --> 00:04:09,950 So all these wind parks can connect to the plug. 57 00:04:09,950 --> 00:04:13,340 One plug on such a platform is huge. 58 00:04:13,340 --> 00:04:16,370 And it costs about a billion euros. 59 00:04:16,370 --> 00:04:19,209 So this is really big money. 60 00:04:19,209 --> 00:04:22,800 One of the big discussions we have in the Netherlands at this moment is whether TenneT, 61 00:04:22,800 --> 00:04:29,300 the system operator for on shore cables, should also be the system operator for off shore. 62 00:04:29,850 --> 00:04:31,860 And there's a huge discussion on that. 63 00:04:31,860 --> 00:04:36,780 And that's close related to the issue if we should socialize the costs for building all 64 00:04:36,780 --> 00:04:39,300 these cable connections or not. 65 00:04:39,300 --> 00:04:45,190 Or should it be covered by the operators who build the wind parks there off shore. 66 00:04:45,190 --> 00:04:49,030 And there are pro's and cons for both. 67 00:04:49,030 --> 00:04:55,140 But if you consider that off shore wind is a long term option for several decades then 68 00:04:55,140 --> 00:05:01,160 it might make sense to have the national system operator being there and provide these cables 69 00:05:01,160 --> 00:05:02,630 and networks. 70 00:05:02,630 --> 00:05:07,130 But another issue is then, if you develop this network you also would 71 00:05:07,130 --> 00:05:08,940 like to connect it internationally. 72 00:05:08,940 --> 00:05:11,070 It's not only a Dutch issue. 73 00:05:11,070 --> 00:05:16,090 But its Germany, its Denmark, UK etc. 74 00:05:16,090 --> 00:05:18,640 But then you get very interesting questions. 75 00:05:18,640 --> 00:05:22,910 Because Germany has other energy policies than the Netherlands. 76 00:05:22,910 --> 00:05:29,910 And it might be very tempting or attractive to export wind power from the Netherlands 77 00:05:30,220 --> 00:05:34,040 to Germany because of the subsidies are bigger in Germany. 78 00:05:34,040 --> 00:05:36,810 So you would draw subsidies from Germany to the Netherlands. 79 00:05:36,810 --> 00:05:40,100 And the Germans would not be very happy about that. 80 00:05:40,100 --> 00:05:44,100 And we have a lot of these kind of disputes. 81 00:05:59,930 --> 00:06:04,860 And another additional issue with off shore wind is also that if we build these far and 82 00:06:04,860 --> 00:06:09,100 large off shore wind turbines outside the 12 mile zone, 83 00:06:09,100 --> 00:06:13,120 its not anymore the law as we know it in the Netherlands. 84 00:06:13,120 --> 00:06:14,960 It's international law. 85 00:06:14,960 --> 00:06:18,080 So how you regulate in these international waters. 86 00:06:18,080 --> 00:06:20,660 The production of energy between countries. 87 00:06:20,660 --> 00:06:22,880 So its extremely challenging. 88 00:06:22,880 --> 00:06:29,070 Load balancing is a very important issue if you look to sustainable energy production. 89 00:06:29,070 --> 00:06:34,910 Because the availability of wind is not always in line with the need for power. 90 00:06:34,910 --> 00:06:41,620 And the availability for solar PV is not always in line with the need for electric power. 91 00:06:41,620 --> 00:06:46,000 So there's a huge discussion going on on the storage of electricity 92 00:06:46,000 --> 00:06:49,500 and perhaps even other means of energy. 93 00:06:49,500 --> 00:06:51,670 So these power to gas discussion: 94 00:06:51,670 --> 00:06:56,000 could we use a surplus of wind power energy in the North Sea 95 00:06:56,000 --> 00:07:01,510 to change electric energy into hydrogen? 96 00:07:01,510 --> 00:07:05,470 So you would need water and then you could produce hydrogen. 97 00:07:05,470 --> 00:07:06,870 And you could store hydrogen. 98 00:07:06,870 --> 00:07:10,980 And you could use it then in times when you would have the need for power. 99 00:07:10,980 --> 00:07:12,790 That of course costs a lot of money. 100 00:07:12,790 --> 00:07:16,480 And there's a discussion going on whether its worth while to do that or not, 101 00:07:16,480 --> 00:07:19,220 because you also lose energy. 102 00:07:19,220 --> 00:07:24,930 And on the other hand you might also consider its not only to take, 103 00:07:24,930 --> 00:07:30,880 to use the power as demand asks for it. 104 00:07:30,880 --> 00:07:35,260 You might also try to influence the demand for electric power. 105 00:07:35,260 --> 00:07:41,030 So under which circumstances would industry be willing to shut down some production plants 106 00:07:41,030 --> 00:07:43,610 if there is shortage of energy? 107 00:07:43,610 --> 00:07:48,970 How and to what degree would household be willing to reduce their energy use if there 108 00:07:48,970 --> 00:07:51,480 is a shortage of provision of energy. 109 00:07:51,480 --> 00:07:56,070 And these are all very interesting challenges and you can do a lot with regulation. 110 00:07:56,070 --> 00:07:59,090 Giving price signals for instance. 111 00:07:59,090 --> 00:08:01,570 Introducing these smart metering. 112 00:08:01,570 --> 00:08:06,190 So there are technical solutions for that storage but there are also institutional/regulatory 113 00:08:06,190 --> 00:08:10,600 solutions for that and the trick will be to find the right combination between both of them. 114 00:08:19,200 --> 00:08:26,300 At them moment I'm doing research on social responsible innovation. 115 00:08:26,370 --> 00:08:34,700 So its not only an issue on whether you get the right technology or the right regulation. 116 00:08:34,740 --> 00:08:44,500 But it's also an issue of what kind of moral values does society associate with certain technologies. 117 00:08:44,600 --> 00:08:51,509 So what kind of moral values are embedded in wind systems. 118 00:08:51,509 --> 00:08:57,319 Or what moral values are incorporated in certain kind of regulations. 119 00:08:57,319 --> 00:09:01,829 For instance if you think that TenneT, the system operator, 120 00:09:01,829 --> 00:09:05,079 should build the off shore network there. 121 00:09:05,079 --> 00:09:10,620 With this kind of regulation, we would admit that this is a social responsibility 122 00:09:10,620 --> 00:09:12,829 to build off shore wind energy there. 123 00:09:12,829 --> 00:09:18,209 Which is also related to the issue that society thinks that off shore wind is important. 124 00:09:18,209 --> 00:09:20,439 So its an ethical statement. 125 00:09:20,439 --> 00:09:26,100 And if you build wind turbines far off shore so you will not see them. 126 00:09:26,100 --> 00:09:33,100 Then this visibility is also some kind of ethical value which is then dealt by a more 127 00:09:33,990 --> 00:09:40,300 complex and costly solution to build these wind turbines far off shore so you will not see them. 128 00:09:40,459 --> 00:09:46,449 So inside the technological choices and the regulatory choices there's certain values, 129 00:09:46,449 --> 00:09:49,579 ethical values, social values, embedded. 130 00:09:49,579 --> 00:09:53,670 And if we develop these off shore wind turbines or wind parks. 131 00:09:53,670 --> 00:09:59,399 And if we develop solar power PV systems or other energy systems we need to be very much 132 00:09:59,399 --> 00:10:07,300 aware of these kinds of values which are sometimes embedded in technical or institutional choices. 133 00:10:08,000 --> 00:10:12,839 And I think this social acceptability and social acceptance of future energy systems 134 00:10:12,839 --> 00:10:16,800 if very decisive for the success of it.